This whole thing goes back to the "is music art or business" thing for me. Yes, some people, like Gene $immon$, will tell you straight up that music is a business, nothing less, nothing more. I don't see it that way, I just don't. I don't care how much money is involved, how many lawyers or managers are involved, none of that. MUSIC IS ART. I don't understand one lick about business at all and I never will, because I don't want to. Music is art to me, period. And when I see shit like this, where things are done purely for business reasons and because the almighty dollar is involved, it just bums me out. Fucking leave Bill in the photos, every Sabbath fan KNOWS he was in the band and in the photos, you can't erase our fucking memories, although I'm sure Sharon would like to be able to. Just leave him in the photos.

The question: Is music art, or a business?... Is irrelevant. It's the wrong question, and it's meaningless.

The real question is: What makes music an art or, a business... The answer (as I see it) is it depends on the motives. Gene Simmons only cares about money. His music is a business. For artists that want to connect with people, project themselves outward, or just try to invoke emptions in people, their music is art.

The same distinction needs to be made between entertainers and artists, just like movies and film.

"Music" can be both, they are not mutually exclusive. Sabbath, in the beginning seemed to be artists (I could be wrong). But now it's a business. Just like what happened to Metallica. The name of the band, became a brand that needs to be protected and used to maximize profit for whomever holds the power.

From Geezer Butlers FB-page:

I feel sad to see the Sabbath reunion becoming a bit of a soap opera on the internet. It has been a very tough year for us as a band, having announced our reunion plans, only for Tony to be diagnosed with lymphoma, leaving us no choice but to postpone the proposed Sabbath tour, and then for Bill to go public on his site about an un-signable contract. None of us knew how Tony was going to respond to his intensive chemo therapy, and radiotherapy. Ozzy and myself flew to England to be with Tony, and on his “good” days, we’d meet at his home studio and put ideas together for the upcoming album, all sitting down together, no drummer involved, just 3 of us quietly putting together ideas. We thought that when we had enough songs together for a full band rehearsal, we’d move back to L.A and put the whole thing together with Bill. Unfortunately, to our surprise, Bill issued a statement on his site saying he’d been offered an un-signable contract. He hadn’t told any one of us he was having contractual problems, and frankly those things are worked out between our representatives, and never between the four of us let alone in public. We had the idea of keeping just one show in this year, hoping that Tony would be well enough for that show, and that things with Bill would be sorted. As you may expect, a one off show at Donnington Festival (Download) costs an absolute fortune to stage, involving over 50 people, transport, air fares, hotels, meals, agents, promotors, accountants, lawyers etc, so none of us, expected to make much money from it- it was a one off Sabbath show for the fans, before we go into recording the new album. Apparently, this wasn’t acceptable to Bill’s representatives, they wanted an amount that was so unrealistic that it seemed to have been a joke. So we resigned ourselves to doing Download without Bill, hoping he’d change his mind and at least make a guest appearance. We started rehearsals a few weeks ago with Tommy Cluefetos, the drummer who will be on the Ozzy and Friends Tour. Brilliant drummer and good bloke. It was decided we’d better do a warm up show, to break the ice since we haven’t played together live. The O2 Academy was available in Birmingham, where we were rehearsing, so we decided on that, and to make a donation to Help For Heroes Charity, since we’d be ironing out any glitches we may have. Then Bill put out a further statement saying he’d been ready to play the Birmingham show , but he was expected to have to do it “for free”- well, I think that’s basically how you raise money from gigs for charity – you play them “for free”.

All I am saying is that there are two sides to everything. I do hope to play with Bill again some day. For whatever reason; it wasn’t meant to be this time. Bill’s made his decision, and I have to respect that. Hopefully this painful year will be worth the wait for the new Sabbath album and end in joy and happiness for all.

Stay frosty,
Geezer

This is such fucking bullshit.

Music is a vibration. Music transcends business or art or genres. Your central nervous system interacting with an instrument is the key to the preternatural universe...it may even be how the notion of existence began, with a sound.

You know what? They can all go get fucked. All of 'em, including Bill Ward. Bunch of fucking goddamn shitheads is what they are. Fuck Sabbath. Done with them.

I'm afraid I have to agree with this sentiment. I will forever praise and respect and enjoy what they did in the past...but the black sabbath, inc. of recent years, with sharon seemingly a key player, and this latest childish bullshit...fuck it.

and now geezer's statement going on about how it takes 50 people to make a show happen...including lawyers and promoters and accountants and agents..and MEALS...go buy a fucking sandwich you preening cocksuckers.

and if bill was the instigator of the photo-cropping, it's really just as lame...not the sort of behavior exceptionally well-off people in their 60's should be exhibiting.

so we don't now and probably never will know the truth about all this stupidity, but yeah...they can all get fucked, at this point.

Yes, thats about it. I don't really care anymore who the biggest idiot is in this travesty. In the end the lawyers will work something out and the band can play the Nokia/Verizon/O2/whatever-arenas of the world for a 200-buck-minimum. I rather play the old albums and watch that Paris-video from 1970.

Here you go. If you can watch this without dying of laughter I'll cook you a nice dinner. Atrocious.

Well, I was one of the lucky few to actually be there in Birmingham last night and I'll tell you how it really was.

Sabbath played for 110 minutes in a club in the most extreme heat I've ever known at a gig and played a set which included all the hackneyed old shit like the seen it all before critics said they would be limited to with Ozzy like, er, Under the Sun, Wheels of Confusion, Tomorrow's Dream and side one of s/t in sequence. (Under the fucking Sun, for fuck's sake).

I love Bill to death, always have, but I have grave doubts that he could have either managed or lasted last night. Clufetos was fine, played well without drawing attention to himself (he wasn't even introduced at any point) and was far less lumpen than Appice. Apart from a little heckling during a very short drum solo, and a few wags chanting "Bill! Ward!" in time to the bass drum for Iron Man that followed, barely a single fuck was given about Bill's absence.

The only person who really lost out by Bill not being there last night was Bill himself.

Anyway, the night was not about Bill. Nor was it about Clufetos or Geezer or even Ozzy. It was about Iommi. All eyes were on him. How would he play? How would he look? Well he looked like Iommi always does and he played amazingly. In a sweatpit of a club he swanned around onstage in his leather coat, smiling and looking as cool as he always does. And that meant a hell of a lot to the hometown crowd. Chants of "Tony, Tony" went up throughout the set.

He looked well. The most important thing in all this.

Ozzy sang well, better than I've heard him in years. As far as I could tell, no doubling backing vocals. Was far less of a caricature of himself too. Not so much clowning and bellowing his "catchphrases", rather more going with the music (and also showing a lot of love and deference to Iommi).

I've seen the original lineup of Sabbath 5 or 6 times and the Dio-fronted version a couple. Last night smoked all of them. It was fucking special. Boycott this if you like, it's your loss.

Into the Void
Under the Sun
Snowblind
War Pigs
Wheels of Confusion
Electric Funeral
Black Sabbath
The Wizard
Behind the Wall of Sleep
NIB
Fairies Wear Boots
Tomorrow's Dream
Sweet Leaf
Symptom of the Universe
Drum solo
Iron Man
Dirty Women
-----
Children of the Grave
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (intro)
Paranoid

Special.

People need to stop giving Ozzy any kind of pass over Sharon's decisions. As the saying goes, "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me." That Ozzy has stuck with Sharon through it all and continues to use her as his manager would seem to suggest he's ultimately alright with her approach.

Ha ha, me thinks the same



Big bands, big egos, big money, ha ha, I'm going to spin some Thou, cheers

While I think all of this is childish BS from both sides as well, we all need a little dose of reality. And the fans are acting childish as well - seriously. Bill has been out of Sabbath more than he has been in it over the years. Sometimes by his own doing and sometimes not. I'm a huge Ward fan, my favorite drummer in fact, but if Ozzy, Geezer, and Tony do something together, I'll pay attention to it. I'll buy the album. I'll see the concert. This is probably the last time you will see them billed as Sabbath and if you miss it, oh well your loss. If Bill was involved even better. If Tony and Geezer to something, I'll pay attention. Doesn't matter. I've supported Sabbath in every incarnation of the band, even the Gillan, Martin, Hughes and or whoever else through the years. I find something worth while in every generation of Sabbath. Less in the Martin era of course but there are some gems in there and Iommi's guitar tone sounds great. I've seen them as the original band and I've seen them with the Dio lineup a few times (in the 80s and in the 2000s).

We were hearing from a lot of fans the same shit about Kyuss Lives!. Without Josh, its not Kyuss. Well, maybe, but it was one bad ass concert IMO. I'm so glad I went, might be the last time I get to see those songs played by a majority of the original members.

And to put together a monster show the size of Download, someone is doubting it takes a monster crew from one of the biggest and most famous bands in the world? You are nuts, I can easily see that. Especially as a one off, that costs a hell of a lot of money.

I will admit, that video posted above of Wheels of Confusion, Ozzy sounds horrible. But that is one of the reasons they do warm up shows - shake of the cobwebs, and fix things that need fixing. The set list is actually amazing.

Well, if Ozzy's inability to sing a single fucking note correctly is a non-issue, they can really open up a real kick ass setlist now.

Lets see "Looking For Today" and "Hole In The Sky" in the set; he'll really shine on us haters.

I’m assuming we all know the story by now with Black Sabbath, right up to Bill Ward asking for his image to be cropped from photos due to his non-involvement with current Sabbath shows. I spent a good part of today driving around taking care of stuff and thinking about this whole Sabbath thing, seriously thinking about it, because of all the bands in the world that ever existed, Black Sabbath have informed my view of music more than any other. More than the Beatles, more than Led Zeppelin, more than the Rolling Stones, more than anyone. So to see the mighty Sabbath turned into a circus once again was breaking my heart and making me pissed off.

But then it dawned on me: Isn’t this what Black Sabbath have always done throughout their career? How many fucking singers have they had? How many drummers? One album was released that was supposed to be a Tony Iommi solo album under the Black Sabbath name. A tour was started with one singer and it ended with another. Bill Ward played on one album and then fucking Bev Bevan of ELO toured for it. Ronnie James Dio left the band two different times, only to return triumphantly a third time as the band changed the name to Heaven and Hell, so as to separate themselves from their OTHER lead singer, the one more famous for being on a reality show. Black Sabbath has always fucked things up and made things more difficult than they needed to be, that’s what they do. It’s nothing new. I guess I (and others) was hoping it would be different this time, especially in light of the announcement of Tony’s cancer. But you know what? This is Black Sabbath being Black Sabbath. Will I go see them if they tour? Not without Bill Ward on the drum throne, no way. Will I get rid of all my Black Sabbath CDs and never listen to them again, which I was seriously considering doing? No, I won’t. I’m not that far gone (yet). But Goddamn, they don’t make it easy being a fan, do they?

It's like watching someone die of cancer or aids or addiction....what they are in the end isn't what is important...you have to remember who they were...the good times, the positive memories. I'm pretty disgusted with the whole thing currently, and I won't be seeing them ever again, I'm certain. But I'll remember the good times, rock Vol. 4 just as often, and put the trainwreck of Sabbath 2012 out of my mind. Like Scarab said, they have been a monumental influence on the music that (if I may presume) all of us love and play, and they can't erase that with some geriatric rock star bullshit.

You are right....Black Sabbath's business model has always been terrible. A fuckin ship without a rudder. It is a miracle that they are as relevant as they are. That just speaks volumes for those first 6 albums!

They don't make it easy, no.

But, in the end, at their age and where they are in their careers, a 'reunion' is, of course, about the mighty $; cashing in on, perhaps, one last opportunity before they're basically too old and feeble to be seen as viable or, as in Iommi's case, health reasons force him/them into permanent retirement/death.

So the model of the band has always been pretty wheels off since probably around Vol. 4, but they managed to keep their shit together for two more albums after that one. But drug addiction, health egos, wives, and whatever else has put them exactly where they are today. It's a shame but not terribly surprising looking at the big picture.

Rolling Stone review of the Brum show:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/black-sabbath-reunite-in-birmingham-20120520

Followed by....



At what point does being a fan of a band become like being in an abusive relationship? It's not just you dude, I totally feel the same way. Nothing they can do to piss on their legacy at this point is going to top how awful Forbidden was, though, and if Geezer Butler's playing bass on those songs, that would still be enough to get me out to the show.

Is it Sabbath? Vaguely. Is it the preferred situation? Not at all. I'm not proud to be a Sabbath fan now any more than I'm proud to be a Kyuss fan watching those squabbles, but screw it, rockstars behaving like children is nothing new, and if I was going to swear off every band who had one or more assholes in it, I'd never be able to listen to music again.

"Into the Void
Under the Sun
Snowblind
War Pigs
Wheels of Confusion
Electric Funeral
Black Sabbath
The Wizard
Behind the Wall of Sleep
NIB
Fairies Wear Boots
Tomorrow's Dream
Sweet Leaf
Symptom of the Universe
Drum solo
Iron Man
Dirty Women
-----
Children of the Grave
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (intro)
Paranoid"

I'm looking forward to seeing this set at Download Fest...pants will be shitted.

Right on.

After watching these vids I'm kinda changing my opinion on this situation.

Fuck it this is the last chance these guys have got to play together. Tony could die soon. Ozzy should have died years ago and Bill just cant do it anymore. Thats probably the reason for all this shit. He's just probably not up to it

As dodgy as some of these crowd held vids can look, I tell you what. I would have given anything to have been at that Birmingham gig. With a gut full of beer and a head full of weed, that would have been one hell of a gig.

It's fucking Ozzy, Geezer and Tony for fucks sake