For sure. I think that the only thing is, that Niedermayer doesn't have as many Cups, nor as many games played, and though his offence was decent (output totals that suggest he's much more than a stay at home defenseman), his offence wasn't as good as Lidstrom's. Overall, though, if you factor in his credentials in Olympic games and whatnot, that may bump him up to Lidstrom's level.

you make some great points. i'm not sure i agree with all of them, but there is some solid reasoning behind most of your thoughts. Except for the inclusion of the # of cup rings, a team accomplishment really isn't the best judge of an individual's skills.

They both have 4 cups, Neidermayer also has 2 Olympic Golds and just about every other major trophy. Lidstom is probably the more offensively skilled and has kept such a high level of play for so long. Either way they are both greats.

Agreed. Even the Cup thing can be a bit misleading, since I consider Bourque to be almost unbeatable in almost every category, yet there is something about the number of Cups that does eventually speak about a player's style of play, when you play a couple of decades in the league. I mean, sometimes it is just shitty luck, but Boston had some really good teams then. Perhaps maybe Bourque was more of a quiet leader that doesn't lead in the typical sense--someone like a Messier, you know those types of guys rally the troops and they're born leader type guys. Certain guys like Potvin had also only won the Norris trophies earlier in their career (and weren't quite the same in later years with a declining team). Robinson, despite the Cups, only won the Norris trophy twice (and only won the Norris early in his career), whereas Lidstrom won it 7 times.

I think this is a great pick-up for the Wings. Having watched Quincey out here in Colorado and followed him in LA, I'm very happy that he's back on my team. He ain't flashy but he's very dependable. He plays in all situations and can be counted on for 20 minutes a night. Adding a guy like that on a deep defensive unit is fantastic. He's a 20 minute-guy playing in the 5/6 spot? Hell, yeah. As you said, Asprin, the Wings aren't completely confident in Kindl, or Commodore, for that matter.
And Holland has said this isn't a rental, which means he's planning on signing him to a longer deal.

I do think the Cup rings thing can be misleading.

I asked my dad a couple of years ago who the best defenseman he ever saw was (he's almost 80 yrs. old) and he said without hesitating, Doug Harvey. I said I'd never seen him play, so what made him so good compared to Orr, Coffey, Lidstrom or Niedermayer? He said he controlled the game like no one he'd ever seen. If Montreal needed a goal, he made it happen. If they needed to stop the other team, that's what he did. I argued with him and brought up these other players, but he refused to budge. "Yep, they're very good, but Harvey was better." And he's a Red Wings fan.

In regards to Lidstrom, he also finished as runner-up for the Norris 3 times along with winning it 7 times. He's the oldest Norris winner, which speaks to his longevity. I don't put him at number 1, but I think most people put him lower on their lists than they should. I think when he's retired he'll be considered the second or third best defenseman ever. Numbers don't tell a full story about a player. How do you measure how amazing he is with his stick?

Every NHL player who talks about him considers him the best of his era without much discussion. When coaches, GMs and players talk about the other players, I pay attention. They know the game and those who play it far better than I ever will.

Scott Stevens was another, although he didn't put up the points like bourque, coffee and lidstrom. But then again, who makes hits like him?

Chelios should just get recognition because that guy is a machine. Long friggin' career, He could have kept going if someone would have signed him. There is a game on hulu from 1985 I think between the canadiens and nordiques, he's there.

Brian Leetch was another great defenseman that should get some consideration amongst the greats. Same for Dennie Potvin and Mark Howe.

Quincy will give the Wings some depth for sure, but don't count on him being a replacement for Stuart.

I personally think that Stevie Y was the real winner of a deal, all in all, he traded Steve Downie for a number one draft pick.

I don't hate the trade for the Avs, I liked Quincy but I know that he's really the only d-man we have that we would've received any decent return on. The world ain't clamoring for O' Byrne or O'Brian. Anyone want Matt Hunwick?

I agree, Scott Stevens was another outstanding one. Also glad to see that Chelios is high up on yours, too.....I maintain that if his career PIM wasn't so high, you'd see the points go way up, plus his other on ice stats would probably have been better, overall. Chelios wasn't just tough, he was intimidating. He didn't even need to fight.

Here's another reason I say Coffey's #2 of all time. It may be a personal slant, but I like offense. I like beautiful goals and I simply tolerate beautiful saves (and only when it's against us, at that). People say it takes talent to keep the puck out of the net; I say that it takes talent to put it into the net, because if no one scored, every game would be 0-0. And i'm saying this as someone who grew to hate Coffey and the Oilers in the 80's. I saw the Jets get massacred by that team. It's still not that easy for me to say it, because I thought that we had some good teams, but we always had to beat the Oilers (the eventual Cup winner) to get out of the our division. Coffey was like anyone else's 1st line centre, but on the fucking blue line. He was simply that good.

The '84-'85 Jets were (and still are) one of two teams in NHL history to have 6 30 goal scorers (Mullen, Steen, Hawerchuk, Smail, Boschman, MacLean...factor in Turnbull and Arniel, and that's 8 guys that scored over 20 goals; factor in all the guys with at least 10 goals and that's 14 guys), and Gretzky and Coffey still handed us our ass every time, lit us up, and made us look like an amateur team. THAT takes some serious talent. As the Jets, we had some of the best offense to ever play this game, and it still wasn't good enough. We were 43-27-10 and it still wasn't good enough. We scored 358 goals that year. Still not good enough.

When you lose to one team that much, you start to acquire a real taste for how you lost, and why--you start to rationalize things, "well, we tried, we gave it our best". We did. Our best, no one's best, at that time, was anywhere close to the Oilers. In my mind, those Oilers 80's teams were the best total team to ever play the game. There's been no team to come around and demolish teams like those Oilers have; at least in terms of making star studded teams frustrated in defeat. I mean, we're talking demolish. Obliterate. Embarrass. Humble. Destroy.

No one's kidding themselves as to Coffey's defense, and he got burnt alot, but Coffey--at least since Orr--completely defined "offense as the best defense" as an MO. And no one's been able to touch that, since. If it was that easy, someone would have came along in what's almost been 30 years since and have done it. When someone can go head to head with some of the best offensive players to ever play the game (the mid 80's spawning TONS of superstars; legends in themselves), I don't care how good your defense is when you're being peppered with goals at a rate that no one's been able to touch since then. If it's a wild west shootout, you don't bring a knife to the gunfight. Trap hockey, clutch and grab style or not, no one's ever been able to better it since then.

Most goals from a defenseman in one season:

48-Paul Coffey, 1985-86
46-Bobby Orr, 1974-75
40-Paul Coffey, 1983-84
39-Doug Wilson, 1981-82
37-Bobby Orr, 1970-71
37-Bobby Orr, 1971-72
37-Paul Coffey, 1984-85

5-Ian Turnbull, Feb 2, 1977
4-4 goals have been scored in one game by a defenseman 8 times. The first to do it was Harry Cameron on
Dec 26, 1917, and the last to do it was Paul Coffey on Oct 26, 1984.

Most Assists, Career

1169-Ray Bourque
1135-Paul Coffey
934-Al MacInnis
929-Larry Murphy
894-Phil Housley

Most Points, One Season

139-Bobby Orr, 1970-71
138-Paul Coffey, 1985-86
135-Bobby Orr, 1974-75
126-Paul Coffey, 1983-84
122-Bobby Orr, 1973-74

Most Points, One Game

8-Tom Bladon, Dec 11, 1977
8-Paul Coffey, Mar 14, 1986
7-Bobby Orr, Nov 15, 1973

Those were some long, long drives home from Maroons Road in the mid 80's, I tell you.

That was a tough game--we were winning for most of the game, and the Flyers just stuck it to us in the 3rd period. It's pretty difficult to compete with 54 shots thrown at the net!

All the stats and stuff aside, I think Coffey tarnished his legacy in his latter years. Should have retired about 3 seasons earlier.

Coffey was an incredible offensive threat... not great defensively.
Also, Orr had a season where he was +127!!!! that is almost unfathomable. even more so that he was never a minus during his entire career.

Too bad Orr really was done by the time he was 27. I think with the same length career, #4 puts up more points.

I have never chimed in on this thread because it hasn't been needed. Now it is needed because you guys are talking about all time great defensivemen and you are forgetting the all time greatest defensiveman. Ray fucking borque

Maybe try going back one page?

Sorry...

He was so bad for the short time he was with the Flyers. I was actually embarrassed for him.

Chicago, as well.

Now that Tuomo Ruutu is off-the-market, I hope the Wings can get Paul Gaustad from the Sabres for some added grit. Holland said that after getting Quincey, the Wings are done making any more moves on defense.

There's still the possibility of getting Selanne, though. Wow, that would be one hell of an addition for the Wings. And with Anaheim's chances of getting to the playoffs waning, it might actually be a possibility.

Hey Aspirin,

The Winter Classic in Ann Arbor is a GO!

Jeff Carter to LA for Jack Johnson & 1st rd pick.

^^ Something needed to happen in LA. I was at last nights game and they looked terrible.

LOL The party is back on in LA!~

In future news.. Jack Johnson will be commited after an attempted suicide..having shot himself in the foot instead of the face, because just like everything else he does it ended up being turned over. pkowwww

Top Defence pairing of this spring? Jack Johnson and Brett Lebda haha +/- -100,000

ps: